yes! that's it! that's what i was expecting. it was bothering me too.

dean, just remember what you said: "dad was an a.s!".

I loved this and agree with you completely. I love John, but he was not a righteous man.

I utterly adore this. I mean, it's so dark and angsty but so beautifully done, it's perfect. And the premise is utterly believable.

I never once doubted John was a righteous man. He seemed to always make decisions based on what would save the most people, even if it hurt him or his sons. This went to the point where he would suggest that Dean kill Sam should he go dark side. That does sound horrible and repulsive, but John was willing to sacrifice someone he loved so that tonnes of people he didn't know would be okay. Not many people would be willing to do that. After Mary died, John dedicated his life not only to finding her killer, but to saving people's lives. If that's not a righteous man, I don't know what is.

Demons lie, yes. But we do know that demons tell the truth if they think it'll mess with someone's mind.

I always assumed it was a lie. Or if the truth that he didn't break that it was because they never tried hard to get John to break- because the demons could already tell he wasn't a righteous soul. As you said, it was clear that John wasn't righteous.

Anyway- glad someone wrote this!

I like your take on John's experiences in hell and find it very likely. I mean, I don't think it's possible for anyone not to break in hell, let alone a man already prone to revenge and violence. And someone like John who had military training and war experience would be more likely to "go native" and ensure he stays sane enough to look for an opportunity (like the opened Hell's Gate) than fight a losing battle by staying defiant on the rack until he broke. Great job.

You invited me so here I am.

First off going with out a beta was a mistake and there is no excuse for it. This was riddled with grammar flaws. It would take me too long to point them all out.

I'm biased on this because I truly believe that John Winchester is an asshole of the greatest magnitude. So I agree with your perspective. The only thing that speaks against it is his doing everything he could to hunt down what killed his wife, the love of his life. Well that and his willingness to go to hell to save his son. And not just any son but the son he cared less about. Because Sam was the baby, it was always ‘protect Sammy’ first and foremost. But I digress.

This could have been fleshed out a little more if you had put more thought into it, but overall it was a good tale. It was a solid concept and we all know that demons lie.

Hope you don't think I'm stalking you. I'm at work and my job is boring, but the point is I like what you write and I'm reading more of it. :)

I never really thought John was righteous, either. Self-righteous, maybe, but not righteous. I'm not a John hater, though, but he did make it tough to like him sometimes. I always wondered how he held out while he was there, since he was there so much longer than Dean. Interesting take, I love where you went with it!

Had "In the Beginning" never aired, I might have been inclined to agree with you about John going native. But for me, that episode was the clincher. John loved Mary; loved her more than he knew. He loved his boys no less. He was misguided at times, and it played out in a rather strict and careless matter, but at his heart I believe John knew why he was doing what he was doing. His aggression was out of fear of doing the wrong thing by his kids, and losing them. In Hell, he didn't have that worry. All he had was himself, and with a man like John, I imagined he would have clinged to his love for his family something fierce. When Alistair asked him as he did Dean, I see him taking a long long silence before scrunching up his face and saying "nah" in much the same way Dean did to Zach in "The End."

But that's just my opinion, and I am a little biased towards John. He was a man who never did things by halves, and loving his family was definitely under that category.

-D.

You TOTALLY wrote down my thoughts here!When I watched that episode the same theories went through my head and I was like 'no,Dean!Think!' But... being Dean didn't listen to me *sighs*

I don't think that all the innocent people weren't important to John and I don't think it was JUST for revenge - but his most important reason was taking revenge and finally finding YED. And Dean,growing up like this,does it because of the other people, wants to save them and knew that revenge wouldn't bring mom back. So, I agree with revelation said, a righteous man had to be broken - it wasn't until Dean broke that the first seal was broken too. That doesn't mean that John didn't break, it means that no righteous man broke.

I'm very glad that you have similar theories about that one like me. Because, Dean and these father issues of his - soft spot, always get to me.Hárd topic that gave me headaches more than once,because one can hate and love John.

I loved this hugged!

Wow, what a story, Sivler. Well written, imaginative and intense.

No surprise the other demons would keep their distance to Alastair when he 'broke' Daddy Winchester but the man failed to break the seal because he wasn't the foretold "righteous man".

And certainly, Alastair was still calling the shots, even when it was Dean torturing him on the angels' behalf for a change. The demon knew how to play the older Winchester like a fiddle; he had had fourty years to get to know Dean's tells and secrets and everything, after all.

Plus, much like what you wrote, I believe that the things about John were mostly lies for the sake of getting to Dean. Due to his unsolved Daddy-issues, there's hardly anything hurting the older boy more than that. And Alastair surely would have been aware of it.

-

As for your question in the author's note, I actually don't know if it's a "soldier thing", but I agree with your statement of (wo)men 'going native' out there when there's no hope of rescue. My belief is, it's human survival instinct, really.

I like the idea of John being too awesome to break.

:D

WOW! i never realized how much that bothered me until now! you are completely and totally correct, john winchester is NOT a more righteous man than dean, Dean is FAR more stubborn when it comes to doing what it is he thinks is necessary. wow, i never even noticed that before, but it has always struck me as just..wrong, props!

Fabulous as always. The big righteous-man debates that episode spawned kind of surprised me, because I automatically (and without thought) assumed that Alistair was lying. And then I read the debates, and had to think about it a little bit more, and this is kind of what I came up with:

1- The demons were trying to trade John for Dean pretty early in season 2.

2- John was free to make a break for it in All Hell Breaks Loose.

3- Alastair was trying to mess with Dean in that scene. Whether John nroke in a day or never broke at all, Alastair had no reason to saying anything but what he did, especially as Dean's guilt and daddy issues are like a giant "kick me" sign...an easy target.

Plus, the show has been throwing around fate and destiny and prophecies and what not, and all that implies that it could only be Dean. Plus, if all it took was someone selling their soul for someone else or something along those lines, it implies no one who has done that has ever broken, which is just pushing it a bit.

It's a good story and, as always, I love your writing. I do believe that Alistair lied, but not because John went native. I think John actually somehow escaped at some point. That's how he got so close to the devil's gate. They wouldn't have sent him there, because they were planning on opening it the entire time to let Lilith out. Alistair worked with (for?) Lilith so he probably knew the plan. John was somehow at a place where demons were converging to get out.

Also, it was the torturing of souls that made you a demon. John was definitely no demon when he got out of the gate even though I kind of think that 120 years would definietly get you more than halfway there. I think John was a righteous man... I think all three Winchester were righteous men. I think if anyone could recognize an *unrighteous*, it would be demons. Especially Azazel (who was actually inside John) and Alistair (who tortured them for a 'living'). Yet Azazel was confident enough to make the deal with John. I think any of them could have broken that seal. I think it was just meant to be Dean just like it was meant to be Sam who broke the final one even though there were multiple 'special kids.' I don't think it means John was tougher... just that John wasn't the right one.

Well, that's my two cents anyway.

-Angie