pls update

Incredibly well written. I can’t wait to see how events are going to unfold with this unique duo. Especially since archer and Zero are two of my most favorite characters in all of fiction.

I honestly cant wait for the next chapter, this is really good

I think this has interesting places it can go. EMIYA as part of a reverse harem is a unique spin we don’t see often around here. Hope you keep going with this some day.

I actually like this one better than the other one with Chiron. Dunno why.

i like this fic

Pls update...

I sent you a Private Message with a story proposal a few days ago, because I really enjoyed the first chapter and wanted to see if you were interested in an idea I had.

Did you happen to read it yet?

This is great please continue

Well, this is intriguing. I do wonder what kind of effect Archer's presence will affect the progression of Drakengard 3. He's already making a progressively positive impression on Zero(Rose) thus far, despite a tumultuous start, and may be on his way to becoming her first official friend(though that's going to be an uphill battle in itself, regardless of his treatment of her). It's likely going to be awhile before she even considers opening up to him about the Flower and her 'sisters', though. I'm looking forward to the possible encounter with Michael. Of course, one of the...er, "inconveniences" of Archer's continuous contact with Zero will inevitably lead to the topic of sex in the future(since Intoners are pretty much "in heat" 24/7 and have near-insatiable sex drives), in which I imagine things will be fairly awkward for Archer, but that's for another time. I'm also wondering what Accord's take on Archer's presence will be since he is an unprecedented anomaly to the recorded timelines of the Drakengard/Nier Universe, and if she'll approach him.

Oh and this goes to the "Guest" reviewer: This is the REVIEW section, not a Type-Moon chatroom, Discord or forum. You're here to critique the story, not needlessly regurgitate information about Fate/Stay Night or hold imaginary conversations with yourself because neither of that helps the author.

Do you have plans to send EMIYA to other places in the nier/drakengard universe after the end of this story?

Unfortunately the Typemoon wiki is an unreliable resource. If you need help on any Nasuverse lore, go here: general-type-moon-discussion-thread-2-unlimited-titles-works

Nice

This is pretty amazing, I’m really liking it. Anyways, I know that Archer won’t just UBW his way to victory yet I hope that we get to see more than the usual noble phantasms he uses, and more of the lesser know Noble Phantasms in UBW (you could go to the TYPE-MOON wiki and look up Archer to see if his page mentions any noble phantasms). I also hope that Zero’s reaction to the line “I am the bone of my sword” is as funny as I imagine it or maybe if Archer sees her revive he just gives her a blank/shocked look and say: “but people die when they are killed”.

The difference between Shirou and Kiritsugu.

Q: I thought Shirou’s ideals were the opposite of that. That he was selfish as a contrast to the selfless kiritsugu. Am I wrong?

A: Opposite in motive, not in deed.

Kiritsugu did it largely as a penetive act, to atone for being too weak to save Shirley and the others, and to possibly make up for all the horrendous and bloodthirsty shit he did in his life. He “saved” (lol) others, but a large part was running from his own bloodlust and the stupid idealism he never outgrew because his childhood was cut short by the Philippines incident. He always has an itchy trigger finger you’ll notice, and never once in his life ever hesitates to kill. That innate sense of bloodlust and violence is something he runs and hides from, and tries his damndest to counterbalance with the “save people” mindset, which is ultimately just a self defeating lie he tells himself so he doesn’t go insane realizing he’s a monster.

Shirou does it selfishly. He doesn’t weigh out his karma or the overall effect like Kerry. He does it because he thinks it will make him truly happy like Kerry, as he never really feels “true happiness,” sort of like our boy Kirei. He feels empty and lonely due to the survivors guilt from the fire. Sadly, I doubt he realizes that Kerry wasn’t really happy even at the end: he was broken, a hollow shell of a man, and all he could do is smile and try to forget the pain in end.

Ironically, it can and will lead Shirou to committing a metric fuckload of atrocities and war crimes like papa Kerry.

That last part only really applies to Archer though, and he was framed for those war crimes. As for the major atrocities, he committed them against his will as a Counter Guardian for Alaya, though a bunch of people were still massacred by his hands nonetheless. Unlike Kiritsugu (and Archer to a lesser extent), we aren’t certain of what FSN Shirou goes on to do; other than UBW Shirou traveling the world to help people, and Fate Shirou eventually reuniting with Saber in Avalon. Besides that though, your explanation is solid, and I couldn’t have worded it any better.

Q : Is Kiritsugu really that selfless?

A: I don't really think selfless is a word that can be ascribed to someone who will sacrifice others ruthlessly to reach a goal, even if that goal is saving everybody else.
Certainly, he has good intentions, but it looks like his motive to me is as selfish as Shirou's.

Claim: Kiritsugu was incredibly selfless. Remember what he said when he shot the grail’s illusion of Illya and Iri? He said that their lives were not worth as much as the other 7 billion people on earth. He was so selfless, he was willing to sacrifice his family and even his own humanity in order to bring happiness to the whole world. I really can’t think of anything more selfless than that

Response: He selfishly decided the values of Illya and Iri's lives. Even ignoring that, he does it all the time to innocent people he doesn't even know.

If you were able to ask those same people he sacrificed for the greater good, would every single one of them consider him selfless?

How about after knowing that their sacrifice would be ultimately in vain, because the omnipotent wish-granting device Kiritsugu was fighting for turned out to be a scam?

He selfishly decided to take on the mantle of judge, jury, and executioner, all because of some childhood trauma he still can't let go of.

If we go by purely utilitarian logic, then he can be argued to be pretty selfless. But the world does not run on purely utilitarian logic.

Sacrificing yourself to prevent the sacrifice of other people.

Heck, even just breaking your own body to save 101 instead of sacrificing 1 to save a 100, is a more selfless act than that.

I really can’t think of anything more selfless than that.

Claim: Obviously not everyone would view him as the savior of the world especially a lot of those whom he killed. On the other hand though, think of all the countless more people who would have to die if he hadn’t tried to reach his goal. There would be much more suffering if his wish wasn’t fulfilled than if his wish was fulfilled

About the wish not working out, that doesnt have a lot of bearing on his character. It’s tragic that his wish wasn’t fulfilled, but there was no way he could have known it would have ended like that and there was nothing he could do about it. It’s unfortunate how things turned out, but it doesnt change his character. It’s why he feels so heartbroken when he realizes the truth about the grail. He killed all those people to get to his goal which ended up amounting to nothing.

Obviously breaking all the bones in his body wouldn’t help in achieving his goal. He didn’t have the option of only hurting himself. He had to hurt others to get to his goal. In the end, he did have to hurt a few people, but I think in comparison to the countless people he would have saved, those sacrifices were worth it.

Response: The reason Kiritsugu is even trying to save the world in the first place is to make up for the tragedy in Alimango Island.

If you think Shirou's motive is selfish because it's driven by survivor's guilt and a desire to live up to Kiritsugu, then Kiritsugu's motive is also selfish because it's driven by his personal tragedy and a desire to distance himself away from his magus father.

Claim: Actually, the more I think about it, the more I feel like you’re right. What makes Kiritsugu happy is knowing that his actions are bringing the most people happiness. What makes him sad is knowing that he prohibited that from happening due to his own actions.

What makes Shirou happy is saving others, but more importantly, saving those close to him. What makes him sad is losing those close to him. Shirou can be happy making a decision that Kiritsugu would despise. The whole thing with Sakura in heaven’s feel is really similar to what happened to Shirley on the island. The difference between Shirou and Kiritsugu is that it would make Kiritsugu incredibly sad to let Shirley/Sakura live at the expense of the lives of many others and it would make Shirou incredibly happy to let Shirou/Sakura live at the expense of the lives of many others. While on a more personal level, I like Kiritsugu a lot more and much more agree with his morals, I can’t help but admit that they are both doing what they’re doing to attain happiness and not allow whatever makes them sad to occur.

That being said, I think if you phrase it like that, then every action anyone does ever is selfish. Everyone is just doing whatever they do to attain their own happiness and refrain from doing things that would make them sad. It’s hard to call anything selfless when it’s always done for the interest of the person doing it

Response: I've always disagreed with labelling Shirou as selfish for pretty much the same reasons you just explained.

I've always felt like people have internalized Kirei's troll logic he used to torment Shirou about his ideals and just decided he was correct on that assessment. Doesn't help that Shirou himself pretty much accepted that assessment of himself too.

I'm just pointing out the double standard of calling Shirou selfish while calling Kiritsugu selfless when they're both just trying to pursue their ideals in their own ways.

Though I think your assessment of Shirou is a bit incorrect. Shirou always wanted a world where everybody is happy, his only difference from Kiritsugu is that Shirou was a bit more merciful and tends to be much more emotionally invested.

Kiritsugu can distance himself from his emotions, Shirou can not.

Which is why being forced to kill so many innocents despite it for being the greater good breaks him more completely than Kiritsugu. As we see in CG EMIYA, and EMIYA Alter.

Claim: But when you put it that way, I can’t think of an act that would actually be selfless. Sure they are both selfish, but in the end, Kiritsugu’s ideals lead to less suffering and greater happiness for more people

Response: That's not what happens in the series though. Pretty sure the whole point of the confrontation with Angra Mainyu was to deconstruct and criticize Kiritsugu's method of saving people.

All the people that Kiritsugu saved that were shown in the series also end up in tragedies. Illya gets taken away, Irisviel dies, Maiya is killed, Shirou may end up in his own personal hell depending on the timeline.

Hell, there are some unneeded suffering that was caused by Kerry as well.

He didn't need to torment Saber about her ideals. Pretty sure that one has no selfless motive behind it. If he was actually planning on just using her as a tool, then there was no need to needlessly antagonize her.

And Archibald was an arrogant prick to be sure, but the way Kiritsugu disposed of his team was just beyond cruel. He was pretty much out of the war. Giving him false hope of surviving with his fiance just to end it is just needless cruelty.

That mindset of always having to be ruthless reflects badly upon Kiritsugu many times in the show.

Claim: How so? I understand that he does cause some people to suffer (and some suffer needlessly too), but when you compare it to all the people he would have saved, he still would have saved many many more people than Shirou.

Response: How can you be completely sure of that?

We don't know the full scope of their theoretical heroics. You're just assuming Kiritsugu saved more people. I'm assuming you assumed that because his methods are more in line with your beliefs.

Pretty sure Shirou can be said to have saved an equal amount of people or even more than Kiritsugu.

Because it was Shirou that was recruited by the World(Alaya) to represent all the nameless heroes that go unnoticed by history. This implies that he was pretty much the best of the best of those types of heroes.

Q: I’m anime only, and the anime hardly touches on Shirou’s wish so I don’t completely remember what his wish was. I’ve been having this conversation with the assumption that it’s similar to his wish in oath under snow where he wishes for a single person’s happiness over the world’s happiness. I think that might be where the misunderstanding is between us. I think I’m misunderstanding Shirou’s wish which is causing a lot of confusion for me. If you know anything about it, I’d be happy to learn, but if it is like oath under snow Shirou’s wish, then I can’t see it saving as many people as kiritsugu.

A: In the main FSN timeline(The only timeline that matters since the Author of Prillya said his series is non-canon to the main Fate franchise) Shirou's wish started out as a naive version of Kiritsugu's wish. Save Everyone.

Then it splits into three routes.

Fate- Shirou's wish remains the same and he won't compromise on it. Doesn't Succeed. Dies and Reward is an eternity in the utopia of Avalon together with Artoria.

UBW- Shirou reexamines his wish and decides that even if it's unrealistic and that he will eventually have to compromise, he decides to follow through on it, because in the end, wanting to save people isn't wrong.

A happier, saner, and more fulfilled version of Kiritsugu's ideal that isn't as naive as Fate route Shirou's.

HF- Shirou finds out about Sakura's fate as a Matou. Felt like a hypocrite when he can't even save the person closest to him (not his fault, Sakura hid it pretty well).

Decides to abandon the wish of saving everyone in favor of saving those closer to him. Namely Sakura.

Then there are other timelines.

Archer's route - Pretty much the same as Fate route. Doesn't succeed, and had to make compromises the same way as Kiritsugu. Makes a pact with Alaya, forced to go against his beliefs for all eternity, becomes extemely embittered as a Counter Guardian.
Mind Of Steel - A bad end in HF. Shirou embraces Kiritsugu's philosophy of being ruthless completely.

Q: So would I be wrong in saying that while Shirou and Kiritsugu have a very similar goal in most of the routes, Shirou (in most routes) won’t sacrifice the lives of others to fulfill his goal while Kiritsugu would?
A: He would try harder to find an alternative that would save innocents rather than going for the sacrifice 1 person to save 100 as the default. He is also more willing to sacrifice himself if it means that everybody else is saved.
But Shirou is capable of killing villains.

Q: If he realized that the kill one person to save 100 was the only option, would he follow through with it?

A: Yes, if literally the only option was to kill another person other than himself he is capable of following through on it.

Also depending on who that person is though, Shirou may break down completely afterwards.
That's what happens in Mind of Steel after all. He's killed Sakura for the greater good. Though that leads him down an unhappy path like Kiritsugu where he becomes ruthless enough to kill every other participant in the Grail War, like Rin, Illya, etc.

Q: Then I feel like the only difference between Kiritsugu and Shirou is that Shirou has the luxury of not harming innocents while Kiritsugu doesn’t (assuming the only way Kiritsugu could have gotten the grail was by killing innocents)

A: The difference between them is that Kiritsugu never fully examined his own ideals the same way that Shirou did. That's why he was never fulfilled in life.

He held onto his ideals well into adulthood, and was still naive enough to believe in the promise of an omnipotent wish granting device made by the very same mages that he detests.

He's as self-destructive as Shirou was and it frustrates me that almost all his fans believe that he had the more mature viewpoint.

Shirou never bought into that Holy grail scam in the first place. He only participated in the Grail War to save as many innocents as possible.

We can see the introspection about heroism going on in Shirou's character in the way that there's so many routes about him deciding on how to be a hero.

Also, Kiritsugu did have a choice to not go through with the Grail War.

In the Prisma Illya universe, he embraced his selfishness and put a stop to the 4th Grail War before it even started to protect his own family.

He's also hunting down people who are a threat to his family specifically rather than engaging in his previous heroics in that series.

Shirou has the luxury of not harming innocents while Kiritsugu doesn’t

That's what happens when your series is written by the Urobutcher.

Kiritsugu has the option of not involving innocents. Notably, the way he evacuated the hotel before he blew it up. Though he berated himself as becoming soft for that. WTF.

He has the luxury of not involving innocents a lot of times. Most of the time, he just chooses to sacrifice them for a slightly less risk of his plans failing. Which is very different from having absolutely no choice but to sacrifice innocents.

End Statement: Hmm if that’s the case then I’ll admit that my perspective has been thoroughly changed. While i still like Kiritsugu, I see now that he’s far from perfect. I also didn't know that about Shirou, I dislike him a whole lot less now than when I first saw him. I feel like I understand both characters and their ideologies a whole lot more now.